Curse

Fay Vert · Nov 28, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

well, can anyone disprove that "shadow form should be nerfed on principle, because no online RPG should have a godmode build"? if anyone can actually give a good reason WHY shadow form should exist in its current form, then it should not be nerfed. otherwise, it should be nerfed.

To further support the nerf. How would you feel about the game if ANet implemented a cheat code? So, press enter, type in ASD543POI" then have your character jump. Once you do this you enter god mode where you can't be attacked or the target of any spells. Would that be good for the game? Are players so bad that they want to have a cheat code to play it?

Clearly no, Broken Form needs to die.

Lishy · Nov 28, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Actually, I enjoy playing grant theft auto very much with cheats, thank you very much.
Oh wait...

upier · Nov 28, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

unfortunately that argument only makes sense if those goals actually make gameplay differences. too bad they don't, or make so little difference (as in the case of luxon/kurzick ranks) that they don't matter. since these goals are essentially pointless, there's no need for such an radical solution like shadow form.

Are you arguing that if I don't like it I shouldn't go for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

not to mention, people have accomplished these goals prior to shadow form being permanently maintainable, so it's not like shadow form is even absolutely required.

Of course SF in itself isn't absolutely required. What is required though are tools of the same strength. And considering we went from Uran to SF, it makes me wonder what will be next?
iddqd?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

even then, if these goals are really as desirable/out of reach as you claim, the much better solution is to adjust those title tracks so they are more reasonable. that way, there's still no need for a build that effectively marginalizes 99% of the pve content, what's with it being a godmode build and all.

Absolutely.
The problem is that A.Net doesn't feel that it's an issue. And if they don't feel that way, I'd rather have something like SF in the game then not have it.
As long as everything else stays the same, the game is worse off without these insane tools.

Bryant Again · Nov 28, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

unfortunately that argument only makes sense if those goals actually make gameplay differences. too bad they don't, or make so little difference (as in the case of luxon/kurzick ranks) that they don't matter. since these goals are essentially pointless, there's no need for such an radical solution like shadow form. not to mention, people have accomplished these goals prior to shadow form being permanently maintainable, so it's not like shadow form is even absolutely required.

even then, if these goals are really as desirable/out of reach as you claim, the much better solution is to adjust those title tracks so they are more reasonable. that way, there's still no need for a build that effectively marginalizes 99% of the pve content, what's with it being a godmode build and all.

I think I said something exactly like this ages ago. QFT.

I can slightly understand SF allowing players to "see the endgame" or to allow them to see challenging content for the sake of seeing it, but there are a multitude of better ways to go about that.

Lishy · Nov 28, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And considering we went from Uran to SF, it makes me wonder what will be next?

Mending Dev Notes:
"We've felt this skill as underpowered, so we've changed its functionality so that you may not lose more than 10% of your max health and to boost the health regeneration it provides to promote its use in high end clears"

Frenzy Dev Notes:
"When we look at the warrior, we look at big damage and high armor. The double damage component of Frenzy is in contrast to how we designed the warrior, there for we've removed the double damage and instead we've granted immunity to spells and a damage reduction of 10 to aid a warrior tank. We've also extended the duration to 30 seconds so that a warrior can permanently maintain this powerful IAS and resume their role as a high damaging, iron wall

Spirit Bond Dev Notes:
"When we looked at the name of the skill, we noticed its name is "bond". There for, we decided that this would be suitable as a bond and to remove this skill ending after 10 hits. Instead we have this skill ending if the bonder loses more than 50% of his health. This would promote team play, but not overpower a bonder. We feel that the combination of spirit mond and mending will produce great team builds."

moriz · Nov 28, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Absolutely.
The problem is that A.Net doesn't feel that it's an issue. And if they don't feel that way, I'd rather have something like SF in the game then not have it.
As long as everything else stays the same, the game is worse off without these insane tools.

anet do feel that it is an issue. however, they are too afraid to ruffle feathers to fix it. in this situation however, they have no choice but to kill shadow form. if they are feeling nice, they can adjust the title tracks until they are more reasonable, which isn't very hard to do.

in the end, it's all about the integrity of the game. godmode builds do not belong in online RPGs. anet is obligated to kill shadow form on principle alone. if they fix insane title tracks (or more precisely, if they REMEMBER to fix insane title tracks), then all the better.

upier · Nov 28, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

anet do feel that it is an issue. however, they are too afraid to ruffle feathers to fix it. in this situation however, they have no choice but to kill shadow form. if they are feeling nice, they can adjust the title tracks until they are more reasonable, which isn't very hard to do.

in the end, it's all about the integrity of the game. godmode builds do not belong in online RPGs. anet is obligated to kill shadow form on principle alone. if they fix insane title tracks (or more precisely, if they REMEMBER to fix insane title tracks), then all the better.

Considering that they said that they do not plan on removing more grind (=remaking more titles), I do not feel that they are aware enough of the issue.
And as long as the core issue remains unresolved, we'll see more of this crap pop-up. That is, if people continue playing.

We are dealing with a relatively dead game. The game is not getting any new content which means that the "content" currently available in the game has to convince players to keep playing. Players need to keep playing to:
1. keep interest in GW - which is good for A.Net
2. to keep a healthy population - which is good for the players.
The content that players that you actually want in this game are left with are the most grindy things. And this content is currently designed in a way that makes it unattainable by normal play. The only reasonable way of obtaining them is by shortcuts such as SF and it's brethren. Removing these shurtcuts will mean that a big amount of players will find themselves, or they already have (for those people that do not resort to these shortcuts), in a position where they have nothing left to do. The carrot on the stick is so far away that you can't even see it.
And what good does this situation do for the game?

As long as this core issue isn't resolved, we'll be either stuck with an unplayable game or we'll need a band-aid.
And guess what SF is?

moriz · Nov 28, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

shadow form is not a bandaid, because godmode builds are never bandaids. they are game destroyers. like i said in previous posts, it's now a matter of principle for anet to kill shadow form. if they really want a bandaid, they can go find another one. or even better, fix the core issues.

Blobbob · Nov 28, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Removing these shurtcuts will mean that a big amount of players will find themselves, or they already have (for those people that do not resort to these shortcuts), in a position where they have nothing left to do. The carrot on the stick is so far away that you can't even see it.
And what good does this situation do for the game?

On the other hand, what happens once that last carrot on the stick is finally caught and there's nothing left to do?

Also, something that hasn't been considered is that GW2 may bring in new players that will actually pick up GW to earn HoM rewards. Heck, Anet will probably eventually offer it at a discount or something to GW2 players. Anet can keep people interested in GW if they wish, making what we're currently experiencing just a temporary decline in population (which happens in lots of games before a big sequel or expansion is released).

Even if you keep SF, players will eventually run out of things to do. And that's not a problem that can be feasibly fixed.... if you're not interested in PvP then eventually you're going to reach a point where you've done everything. It's a bandaid to a problem that can't be fixed, and it potentially even causes other problems in the process.

Not saying SF SHOULD be nerfed (just to clarify again

). Just that I don't think this is a good justification, no matter which way you spin it (it lets people earn things too fast vs it allows you to earn certain rare things at all).

Steps_Descending · Nov 28, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Mending Dev Notes:
"We've felt this skill as underpowered, so we've changed its functionality so that you may not lose more than 10% of your max health and to boost the health regeneration it provides to promote its use in high end clears"

Frenzy Dev Notes:
"When we look at the warrior, we look at big damage and high armor. The double damage component of Frenzy is in contrast to how we designed the warrior, there for we've removed the double damage and instead we've granted immunity to spells and a damage reduction of 10 to aid a warrior tank. We've also extended the duration to 30 seconds so that a warrior can permanently maintain this powerful IAS and resume their role as a high damaging, iron wall

Spirit Bond Dev Notes:
"When we looked at the name of the skill, we noticed its name is "bond". There for, we decided that this would be suitable as a bond and to remove this skill ending after 10 hits. Instead we have this skill ending if the bonder loses more than 50% of his health. This would promote team play, but not overpower a bonder. We feel that the combination of spirit mond and mending will produce great team builds."

Exactly the tone they tend to use.
I laughed seriously hard at that one.
ty Kain!

upier · Nov 28, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

shadow form is not a bandaid, because godmode builds are never bandaids. they are game destroyers. like i said in previous posts, it's now a matter of principle for anet to kill shadow form. if they really want a bandaid, they can go find another one. or even better, fix the core issues.

When they were talking about SF and SCs, the issue that they discussed was the speed. The fact that you were immune to everything wasn't as big of an issue as the said speed and even that was on the other side negated (at least slightly) by the fact that it enabled people to party.
That to me sounds like a band-aid rather than a gamekiller. Because when something is just destroying the game you do not go look for it's upside.

So, by removing the band-aid you also remove the positive effects. So the question that pops-up is: will the game be better off without those positive effects than it would be had we not removed the baind-aid and we'd be stuck with the negative effects.
Personally, given the lack of support GW is recieving I do not feel they will ever address this issue, so I would rather be stuck with the negative effects that we are currently suffering than lose the positive effects we also witness.
That's why I am willing to endure the insanity that is SF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blobbob

On the other hand, what happens once that last carrot on the stick is finally caught and there's nothing left to do?

Also, something that hasn't been considered is that GW2 may bring in new players that will actually pick up GW to earn HoM rewards. Heck, Anet will probably eventually offer it at a discount or something to GW2 players. Anet can keep people interested in GW if they wish, making what we're currently experiencing just a temporary decline in population (which happens in lots of games before a big sequel or expansion is released).

Even if you keep SF, players will eventually run out of things to do. And that's not a problem that can be feasibly fixed.... if you're not interested in PvP then eventually you're going to reach a point where you've done everything. It's a bandaid to a problem that can't be fixed, and it potentially even causes other problems in the process.

Not saying SF SHOULD be nerfed (just to clarify again

). Just that I don't think this is a good justification, no matter which way you spin it (it lets people earn things too fast vs it allows you to earn certain rare things at all).

I am not suggesting to make everyone GWAMM when they create a guy. Don't get me wrong. For instance, I consider the Sunspear title (outside of the skills linked to it and the progress tied to certain ranks) a superb title. You can either farm it or you can just play the game and you'll max it by VQing it.
You don't open 10k chests by playing the game.
Or earn 10 mil faction.
Balance this problem based on the content the game is offering. Ask yourself, for instance, how many chests will a player run into when playing the game? Take all 4 games, both modes and since the title is an account wide - multiply that number by something like 2. I am guessing this number will be nowhere near 10k.
This will allow players to have obtainable goals.

But once these goals are completed - there is nothing wrong with saying to the player that this is it. The player can then start a new guy, move onto PvP or simply quit.
Now while this may seem like the situation we have with the carrot not even being seen, there is a slight difference. The players will not be leaving the game disappointed and frustrated because of the game's out of touch goals, but will be rather leaving it because they did it all. I would argue that this is a MUCH better situation to leave the players in.

Blobbob · Nov 29, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I guess it comes down to how many people truly are "disappointed" when they can't complete certain things like the chest title. It'll seem like there's a large amount here because people who post on forums are typically the most "dedicated" anyway. Personally I'm completely fine with a few titles or skins always being out of reach and I think it's a shame that there can't be a few purely cosmetic rewards that only the most dedicated (or lifeless, depending on who you ask) few will ever get, but I'm not the one running a business.

I still don't think balance decisions should be made for vanity reasons, but if Anet truly does feel that certain things are just too hard to get but they, for whatever reason, don't have the manpower to adjust the amounts then I guess I'm fine with them using the skill to fix other broken parts of the game. I have a hard time believing that reducing the requirements for these titles is difficult enough that a compromise is needed but I'm not them so, in the end, I have no way of knowing either way.

moriz · Nov 29, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So, by removing the band-aid you also remove the positive effects. So the question that pops-up is: will the game be better off without those positive effects than it would be had we not removed the baind-aid and we'd be stuck with the negative effects.

when did having the ability to clear one of the most challenging areas in the game, an area that was made very challenging by design, in 9 minutes, become a POSITIVE effect? this is one of the things that having a godmode build breaks: the godmode build will completely marginalize gameplay and area design.

Steps_Descending · Nov 29, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

when did having the ability to clear one of the most challenging areas in the game, an area that was made very challenging by design, in 9 minutes, become a POSITIVE effect? this is one of the things that having a godmode build breaks: the godmode build will completely marginalize gameplay and area design.

Actually the only positive effect was allowing a greater number to see the UW (or all the other "hard" areas SF was used in). That being said, good guilds posting their runs on Youtube as 1hour video would have done the same jobs. Just like having NM and HM. And that doesn't mean it pays for SF's effect on the metagame and all the balance issue that comes with it... You know the drill I guess.

FyrFytr998 · Nov 29, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Better for me. Better for the people who enjoy playing the game, instead if the people farming UW who can only think in rewards/time.

Good design in your view is lots of loots in the least amount of time? That's not balance, not even gameplay.

To play the Devil's Advocate. Your statement is still just your personal opinion. People who derive "fun" from farming or speed clearing can most certainly say they are at "play". Just because their definition of playing doesn't meet yours, doesn't mean they are not doing it right. The last time I checked, playing Guild Wars was using skill sets designed by the Game Maker to complete missions and kill enemies within the game. It just so happens that Assassins do it just a little better and faster right now because of one skill. No matter which way you cut it though, the person playing the Assassin is still playing the game.

Video game "purists" remind me of overzealous bible thumpers. Their way is the only way, and there shall be no deviations, lest you call yourself a cheater. I bet you guys all Cosplay too, lol.

Lishy · Nov 29, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

I bet you guys all Cosplay too, lol.

Epic Touhou facepalm, GO!

But for the sake of keeping this on topic:

Surely video game bible thumpers are not right, but if the game is being played unintended, it is an exploit still. That said, it is arenanet's responsibility to care and not the players. If the player doesn't like it, they can gtfo.
Note that I want SF nerfed and I'm saying that.

upier · Nov 29, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

when did having the ability to clear one of the most challenging areas in the game, an area that was made very challenging by design, in 9 minutes, become a POSITIVE effect? this is one of the things that having a godmode build breaks: the godmode build will completely marginalize gameplay and area design.

As I have said, the speed was the issue.
But as Steps said, it did have the positive effect of people actually partying. Because it makes it almost impossible to fail it makes people playing to win actually take a chance with some random folks. If we return to builds with a normal chance of failure, the initiative to play with others is greatly reduced.
And, as I am arguing, given the steep grind requirement for the only content left in game, having insane tools such as SF reduces this grind. Either by allowing player to directly work on that content - or by allowing players to farm gold that is later spent on said content.

As I have said, I do not consider the speed and the negative effect on the high end market this has to be reasons enough to justify trashing it.

UnChosen · Nov 29, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said, the speed was the issue.
But as Steps said, it did have the positive effect of people actually partying. Because it makes it almost impossible to fail it makes people playing to win actually take a chance with some random folks. If we return to builds with a normal chance of failure, the initiative to play with others is greatly reduced.
And, as I am arguing, given the steep grind requirement for the only content left in game, having insane tools such as SF reduces this grind. Either by allowing player to directly work on that content - or by allowing players to farm gold that is later spent on said content.

As I have said, I do not consider the speed and the negative effect on the high end market this has to be reasons enough to justify trashing it.

If they really want some items of exclusivity, what they should do is to add the reward to the Z Quest reward, something like 1000 gold coins or something like that. Then it allows people to get exclusive rare items without this attitude of "we must lock everyone out of all areas that has perceived good items". This also puts everyone on almost equal footing without forcing people to find good guilds.

Meanwhile, they should finally adjust all of the end game areas so that they are actually puggable, or to increase the reward to worthwhile levels. And reduce all the grind titles that are only obtainable with gimmick builds or good guilds. Then they can nerf SF and everything would be balanced.

Oh crap, I was day dreaming aren't I...

Lifestyle · Nov 29, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

This is what you get when you have a bazillion and one skills and a dual class system. You get one big giant mess you can't fix.

This is so f'ing right.

Fay Vert · Nov 29, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blobbob

I still don't think balance decisions should be made for vanity reasons, but if Anet truly does feel that certain things are just too hard to get but they, for whatever reason, don't have the manpower to adjust the amounts then I guess I'm fine with them using the skill to fix other broken parts of the game.

Actually it is the reverse. The only reason why UW is hard to complete for most players now is because of the changes ANet made to it in a failed attempt to limit the damage that Broken Form has been doing to the game for so long. Fix Broken Form then revert UW back to the former dificulty levels.